Popup Box Title
Popup Content
Nerfing Some Hales
#1: Nerfing Some Hales
Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:01 pm 
The Unknown
User avatar
Level 3
Total Points: 86 points
Next Level: 100 points
OK, we all know that Robo-Cyphosis is one of THEE worst hale. This cannot be denied, all he does is scare people and sometimes the knife doesn't even do full damage to most of the classes. I suggest an Über and more damage.

Next, we've got Gabe. Half the people that get this one and Robo-Cyphosis kill themselves instead of playing it. He's got a large target of a body and moves a little slowly. His speed could be boosted in order to be compensate for the body or give him more range.

The Rocket... OK... I personally hate this hale. Now he's got a very good concept, I like the usage of the rocket launcher that only damages buildings. However, it used to have a detonator with lots of shots similar to Christian Brutal Sniper. This used to make it fun to play him, however, now he as a shotgun with only three rounds, not as much damage, and very little range. Changing this back to the detonator or some other weapon would make it more fun to use.

That's about it, all the other one's are fine. Thanks for reading, hope this gets considered!
Image
Offline 
   
#2: Re: Nerfing Some Hales
Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:51 pm 
Poptart Bandit
User avatar
Level 7
Total Points: 1197 points
Next Level: 1200 points
1: All Robo-Cyphosis deserves is a weight buff first of all (he's a very light weight Hale).
2: Gaben is fine as is. If he was given even a speed boost, he'd be OP.
3: The shotgun has bullet spread on (The server doesn't have nospread enabled), so he's VERY good at crowd control.

4: The idea of FF2 is that you fight a boss who is unique, powerful, has a magical fuck-ton of health, can kill you in one shot, and is designed to give you a challenge.
It's your job to kill these guys, and personally I like having certain Hales weaker or stronger than others. It makes not only the Hale think of strategies to win, but the players also.
That personally to me is a lot more fun than having the exact same strategy for all Hales, having the same speed and damage, but with just different models. I like the variety and challenge, but you're right in that some Hales COULD use some buffs.
Offline 
   
#3: Re: Nerfing Some Hales
Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:12 pm 
The Saikyo Master
User avatar
Level 5
Total Points: 234 points
Next Level: 400 points
In games with multiple player characters, there needs to be some caveats to some characters in order to make the game fair for both sides. In a well balanced game, there are strengths and weaknesses to all characters in order to ensure that one character doesn't wipe the floor with everyone else.
Take Street Fighter, for example. The character Zangief is big and clunky (like Gaben in FF2), has no ranged attacks, and is at an obvious disadvantage to characters like Ryu with ranged attacks. However, he is also quite strong, allowing good players to work around his weaknesses. Hell, Dan Hibiki, who is often called the worst character in SF and was added as a joke has shown up at the top of quite a few tournament leaderboards. What I'm trying to say is that you need to master a Hale in order to use it effectively, instead of giving up on it and calling it useless.

(P.S.: Nice double post, bro)
Eh.
Offline 
   
#4: Re: Nerfing Some Hales
Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:29 pm 
FIGHT ME
User avatar
Level 7
Total Points: 1004 points
Next Level: 1200 points
I agree with the GABEN speed buff to make him faster.*
Image
Image
Last edited by PenguinBond on Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Offline 
   
#5: Re: Nerfing Some Hales
Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:30 pm 
Poptart Bandit
User avatar
Level 7
Total Points: 1197 points
Next Level: 1200 points
(PenguinBond)
I agree with the GABEN speed buff.

With adding it or that it'd make him OP?
His rage allows him to teleport around the entire map and kill anyone in his path. I think people just need to play hm smarter.
Offline 
   
#6: Re: Nerfing Some Hales
Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:57 pm 
The Unknown
Level 2
Total Points: 20 points
Next Level: 50 points
What I hate is the new superjump added with ff2 which gives significantly less force than the vsh superjump. :ugeek:
Offline 
   
#7: Re: Nerfing Some Hales
Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:40 pm 
The Noseless One
User avatar
Level 6
Total Points: 499 points
Next Level: 800 points
Since I'm partially in the actual backbone of coding the FF2 with Wliu, from experience I shall put all my knowledge behind boss fixes and balances:
1. Adding a Gabe Newell speed boost would destroy the purpose of the boss not to mention his rage alone if done right can take out about 12 people in one rage.
2. Super jump isn't the same as VSH but hard to replicate. May or may not be possible in the future although most people know how to work it and strafe it.
3. Robo Cyphosis does need a buff and we are currently underway on it. Sapper will be added for his low dmg dealt to buildings. Maybe something else but anymore would make him considerably OP. His super jump already recharges a lot faster than the other Hales. Robo Cyphosis can literally jump around oil rig three times after taking jump pad. Like said, any more buffs and he would be powerful than what he should be not to mention he can backstab as well to unexpecting players with his jump ability in mind.
4. Rocket is getting a buff as far as player scare rage goes along with his existing building scare but it will be a small radius. His original weapon was the shotgun. Many complained of the detonator for how useless it was and a distraction to where the players would win a lot more than Rocket. Not to mention from a personal experience as Rocket, with the detonator, a medic was able to single handily pop off 3 übers in less than 2 min of the last minutes of the round and used 3 rages and 27 detonator shots which extended the round longer than it should have. Taken i should have used melee but as he got farther on crevice I had the choice to use detonator which wasn't really too useful.
The Silent Assassin
Tumblr: http://lawdvawldawmawrt.tumblr.com/
Offline 
   
#8: Re: Nerfing Some Hales
Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:15 pm 
The Unknown
User avatar
Level 2
Total Points: 39 points
Next Level: 50 points
I agree with Kairen on this one. I don't play Saxton Hale for a reason. The variety of hales makes this mode (in my opinion) better. Some things to say though.
1. Robo-Cyphosis is not under-powered. he has a significant HP buff, super speed, and a very big jump. Though best played on big maps like nucleus, he is my favorite for getting them face-stabs.
2. Gaben is one of the best hales to play if you're pro. I was playing oil-rig once and the hale walked forward, turned around, and BAM(F) (sorry had to make that joke.)! he killed all the spies in the first 2 minutes. he is fast enough to reach a Demo-man, and can take down other classes with rage.
3. This time I sort-of agree with Jenkins, because the shotgun can get pretty bad on maps like Warebloom. And Lawd has to be too pro and inspire a spy rush and medic rush. He is very good against other classes besides engineer you know. the rockets can 1. Kill soldiers 2. Destroy shields and 3. get less damage from melee sources (as far as i'm concerned)
Last edited by IronLightning on Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Offline 
   
#9: Re: Nerfing Some Hales
Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:35 pm 
The Silent
User avatar
Level 9
Total Points: 1910 points
Next Level: 2000 points
(Old Man Jenkins)
OK, we all know that Robo-Cyphosis is one of THEE worst hale. This cannot be denied, all he does is scare people and sometimes the knife doesn't even do full damage to most of the classes. I suggest an Über and more damage.

Next, we've got Gabe. Half the people that get this one and Robo-Cyphosis kill themselves instead of playing it. He's got a large target of a body and moves a little slowly. His speed could be boosted in order to be compensate for the body or give him more range.

The Rocket... OK... I personally hate this hale. Now he's got a very good concept, I like the usage of the rocket launcher that only damages buildings. However, it used to have a detonator with lots of shots similar to Christian Brutal Sniper. This used to make it fun to play him, however, now he as a shotgun with only three rounds, not as much damage, and very little range. Changing this back to the detonator or some other weapon would make it more fun to use.

That's about it, all the other one's are fine. Thanks for reading, hope this gets considered!

Robo-Cyphosis: We're kinda working on it.
Gaben: Fine as is.
Rocket: We're working on it.

Will be edited after I look at others' posts.
@IronLightning: 3 shots, we nerfed it. You should be able to get at least 2 people though if you can aim decently.
@OldManJenkins: The Rocket is highly OP, he's just broken right now. We're working on fixing him.
Like Lawd said, we're adding a sapper for Robo-Cyphosis. I'm also probably going to give him knockback resist, along with a few other Hales.

About old superjump: There's a config option to re-enable VSH superjump (I think), we'll see how it goes.
If you want to see our progress, it's always there at https://github.com/50dkp/ff2/tree/development (development branch).
~Wliu
Last edited by Wliu on Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Offline 
   
#10: Re: Nerfing Some Hales
Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:41 pm 
Clickwork
User avatar
Level 6
Total Points: 760 points
Next Level: 800 points
I'd advise against any buffs to Robo-Cyphosis aside from lowered knockback to both him and his opponents and adding a sapper. He's already more powerful than people take him for.
Steam name : Usually "Wub Wub, Motherfucker!"
Steam ID : STEAM_0:1:34203941
Youtube : mymiuchiz / ChrisMiuchiz
AIM : Chrismiuchiz / Chris Miuchiz
Skype : Chris Miuchiz
Offline 
   
#11: Re: Nerfing Some Hales
Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:42 pm 
The Silent
User avatar
Level 9
Total Points: 1910 points
Next Level: 2000 points
(ChrisMiuchiz)
I'd advise against any buffs to Robo-Cyphosis aside from lowered knockback to both him and his opponents and adding a sapper. He's already more powerful than people take him for.

Hrngg ninja'd :(
Anyway, edited my post. Also, Chris, please take a look at the shoutbox :( :P
~Wliu
Offline 
   
#12: Re: Nerfing Some Hales
Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:46 pm 
Poptart Bandit
User avatar
Level 7
Total Points: 1197 points
Next Level: 1200 points
@Ironlightning: Regardless of whether you're a grammar Nazi or not, please refrain from insulting people or starting flame wars on the forums.
@Ironlightning: I meant primarily on small maps such as Warebloom. That's where his shotgun can take out more than a few people with the bullet spread and fire damage. You also make a good point about the two things I forgot: His ability to take out shields with rockets and sometimes kill soldiers with the rockets as well.

@Chris: I agree. Robo-Cyphosis is a very good Hale, but people are used to the "Run in and attack" kind of play style, whereas Robo-Cyphosis requires a bit more tact, jumping, and (air) strafing. I was primarily addressing him when I said certain Hales require certain tactics different from the other Hales.

@Lawd and Wliu: Glad to see you both working on FF2 so hard and taking suggestions into consideration.

@Everyone: Threads like this have, in the past become flame wars or just plain idiocy in the past. I'm VERY glad to see that this became a constructive thread where we're bouncing ideas off of each other and sharing progress on FF2 development. :)
Offline 
   
#13: Re: Nerfing Some Hales
Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:20 pm 
FIGHT ME
User avatar
Level 7
Total Points: 1004 points
Next Level: 1200 points
(Lettrini)
What I hate is the new superjump added with ff2 which gives significantly less force than the vsh superjump. :ugeek:


Oh gosh this. Us old VSH players remember this. I would want to add it, but with new Hales, (Like Ninja Spy) they can go way faster around the map. Getting closer and ensuring that revolver kill. Sorry mate, I'd like it too. :( (It's also part of the mod, not our half.)
Image
Image
Offline 
   
#14: Re: Nerfing Some Hales
Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:56 pm 
The Unknown
User avatar
Level 3
Total Points: 86 points
Next Level: 100 points
I'm gonna say, I like the enthusiasm that has been put into this topic.

Also, just so that you're all aware, I'm fine with the Hales as is, but in many instances, there's just so much going on it's hard to be a good hale and have fun with it. The reason I posted this was because I felt that most people on the server are upset with Robo-Cyphosis, Gabe, and the Rocket. Going back too how there's too much going on, some type of boost HAS to be given to the Hale when there's over 20 people on the server at a time. When it's like that, it's the Hale running from players, not the players running from hale.

But one of the more specific problems with being a Hale is that very often, there will be more than 5 spies at a time which leads to numerous backstabs. Some type of limit should be enforced to keep this problem at bay and to eliminate too many of a specific class from appearing. Another few classes, other than the spy that gets annoying when there's too many of them is the demoman, scout, and engineer. Of course, these are the only classes that just about anyone can do real damage with but when there's too many of them, it gets really annoying.
Image
Offline 
   
#15: Re: Nerfing Some Hales
Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:30 pm 
Poptart Bandit
User avatar
Level 7
Total Points: 1197 points
Next Level: 1200 points
(Old Man Jenkins)
I'm gonna say, I like the enthusiasm that has been put into this topic.

Also, just so that you're all aware, I'm fine with the Hales as is, but in many instances, there's just so much going on it's hard to be a good hale and have fun with it. The reason I posted this was because I felt that most people on the server are upset with Robo-Cyphosis, Gabe, and the Rocket. Going back too how there's too much going on, some type of boost HAS to be given to the Hale when there's over 20 people on the server at a time. When it's like that, it's the Hale running from players, not the players running from hale.

But one of the more specific problems with being a Hale is that very often, there will be more than 5 spies at a time which leads to numerous backstabs. Some type of limit should be enforced to keep this problem at bay and to eliminate too many of a specific class from appearing. Another few classes, other than the spy that gets annoying when there's too many of them is the demoman, scout, and engineer. Of course, these are the only classes that just about anyone can do real damage with but when there's too many of them, it gets really annoying.


... If Hale is going up against 20+ players, then they need to not run in like a Leeroy and actually play strategically.
I've seen more than a few Hales not think about what they're doing, run in when there's 20+ players on the other team, and die instantly. That's not our fault. That's THEIR fault for being a bad player. We're most likely not going to make exceptions for bad players. As I said in one of my previous posts, they need to formulate strategies and think about what they're doing, otherwise they'll die instantly and naturally have zero fun. :p That's kinda part of the gamemode. Once more, variety is fun.

As for too many of specific classes, I believe Carge attempted to put in a class limitation plugin, but it wasn't compatible with FF2. I agree that spies need a class limit and POSSIBLY a few other classes (only engineer, in my opinion). I'm sure there's a class limitation plugin that's compatible with FF2 out there somewhere, but I don't believe we've found it. :p Then again, I'm not one of the guys working on FF2.
I imagine Wliu and/or LAWD will have more to say on the class limitation stuff with FF2.

Edit: We're not going to punish spies for getting numerous backstabs, by the way. Spies kinda have the job of getting numerous backstabs, and it's Hales job to avoid them and their backstabs. If a Hale gets backstabbed and doesn't turn around/rage/avoid the spy, then that's their fault.
While I do agree with adding a class limit to spies, there will ALWAYS be good spies who get lots of backstabs. :)
Offline 
   


Search for:
Jump to:  
cron